Hello Pannir and Keith, Pannir has indicated that he is interested the use of ethanol instead of methanol to make ethyl esters because methanol is not readily available in some developing countries. While methanol is available to me, my supplier just quoted a price of $4.41/gal (USD) for 54 gal drums (vs $2.60/gal last June). Price fluctuations, the carbon footprint of methanol vs ethanol use, and the possibility of further restrictions on methanol sales to individuals, makes ethanol a tempting alternative. Keith replied: "Yes, Pannir, this is indeed the missing bit, and one of the last pieces of the puzzle for truly viable and sustainable biofuels production for small farms and local communities." "It's what we were planning in the first place when we started the Biofuel list seven years ago, it was on the list of goals we made then, and it's still there, ....... " I would like to revive the discussion of anhydrous ethanol. As I understand it, the ethanol used to make ethyl esters must be dry; less than 1% H2O. The WVO must be very good quality (dry + titrate less than 2.0 using .1%NaOH). Last year at about this time I built a simple still for recovering methanol. I attempted to dry the methanol using 3A Molecular Sieve (Zeolite). The plan was to get familiar with the process while recovering methanol and move on to ethanol after building a reflux still and getting the necessary permit to distill ethanol. Drying the alcohol and regenerating the zeolite was not as easy as I thought it would be. I put the project aside, but have not quite given up. My question is: Is it actually possible for a person, to produce 99+% pure ethanol using readily available materials, and at reasonable cost, or must it be produced on an industrial scale? Are any of you making it "in your backyard"? I've got my Jerusalem artichokes growing ("Sun Chokes" as Jim Phelps likes to call them) and will try growing sweet potatoes this year. I can always eat them if I don't end up fermenting them. Best to You, Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: Pagandai Pannirselvam To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process" Hi, Keith, Ken and Tom Tom there is no for your apology, as we can have different views. We, Acadamics , engineers , researchers need to learn a lot from all the people like Keith and Tom who are very practical always work very near to the process problems. What always happens to all the new and old engineers who are good in process synthesis , but lack always and also very bad in critical analysis of the project with regard to materials used, the complexity and viability. Thus several millions money spent by university research are all going as a waste such as supercritical extraction for BiD good results at laboratory , but no use for largescale use. The combination of practical and concepts based on the theory need to go together in this list to evolve a better catalysts, prcoessos, equipments, process seperations. The reactive distillation means doing the reaction together with the distillation and I agree with Keith that, yet this can be only research level. After Keith explanation about mixing by recirculation is an effective way to reduce the product revers reaction of glycerol , moreover , the sediment ion of glycerol , made possible means a better way to filter out the glycerol , thus preventing unwanted byproducts. Thus understanding of the process is vital to operate the plant. At the beginning mixing can favour the reaction , the can be slow so that the product can be pulled out of reaction. I also agree with Keith , there is no point to bother about glycerol recovery as this can be easily used as liquid soap , sold soap , combustible , , for bio gas production , even as the source for rural wood energy and hence the high cost of recovery to get ultra purity glycerol is out of question as far as the small scale process are concerned. Yet I have one one question to Keith regarding the use of Methanol instead of ethanol. Will this two stage process can be possible with ethanol only or the mixture of methanol and ethanol can be possible as methanol is not ready avaialable in several developing countries. let us again wish others do participate actively in our list, as this list used to be very dynamic , let us come back all again to make this as leading one . Kind regards to all Pannirselvam 2007/4/12, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Hi Tom, Pannir and all >Pannirselvam P.V > My apologies to the authors of the study. My criticisms >"Sounds like a poorly written science project" and "it doesn't seem >to make any sense" sprouted from my own ignorance. > I am doing my homework on the subject of reactive distillation. > > I must admit to a bias that may compromise my acceptance of any >"new process." I like the idea of being able to make what I believe >to be high quality biodiesel, myself, on my own spot of land, using >little more than what I can scavenge from my local scrap metal dump. I think that's the main point. It's accessible to virtually anyone anywhere. >A new process that goes beyond the reach of an average "Tom" and >puts control back into the hands of big business may be new, but not >necessarily better. It looks like an unholy marriage of the acid-base process and the famous "supercritical methanol" process (Saka et al) that was getting everyone excited a few years back - methanol at 5080 PSI and 350-400C. Um, no thankyou, I don't want big business doing that anywhere near me, let alone backyarders. High temperature + high pressure + lots of methanol as with this "new" process is likely to kill someone, I fear. >As you said: >" The new generation biofuel is like the new wave social web2 , the >free open process for several billions farmer to be free and >independent of the big blues globalised market .This the natural way >for green future for all , where all are included to have the >sustainable green fuel ." > > You may be right when you say "... some novel modification can >be possible to make more environmentally friendly our old two stage >proven JFT BioD process." I think so too, but not if it means trading in some of its many advantages (KISS, for instance). > Thank you for your response and I look forward to discussion and >enlightenment by list members as this story unfolds. > Best Wishes to You, > >Tom > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Pagandai Pannirselvam >To: <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org >Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process" > > Dear Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN , > > From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL